Ashley is the founder and president of YEGarden Suites and Calgary Backyard Suites - Alberta’s only education and advocacy-based non-profits dedicated to informing citizens on the benefits, challenges, and regulations surrounding backyard housing. She is also the CEO of Municipaction Inc., a consulting firm that supports Edmontonians in their city-building endeavours. She has experience working across sectors on projects related to affordable housing, climate change, social isolation and inclusion, infill policy, seniors housing, and demographic change. Born and raised in Edmonton, Ashley holds a BA Honours in Sustainability and Sociology from Dalhousie University, and an MA Planning degree from the University of Waterloo.
[00:00:00] Kol Peterson: Good morning.
Ashley Salvador: Morning, Kol..
Kol Peterson: Thanks so much for coming on today.
Ashley Salvador: Thanks for having me.
Kol Peterson: And I'm super excited to talk with you about the work that you've done. I've been a fan of your research for a number of years and never had a chance to really talk with you directly.
I've read your work because you put some of that content on AccessoryDwellings.Org initially, and that's kind of how I first learned about it. So let's dive right in. So tell us about yourself and where Edmonton is for those who aren't familiar with Edmonton.
Ashley Salvador: Sure. So first of all, I've been tended in Alberta. Some of you may notice the Texas of the north. It's not necessarily that I would say, Hmm. Conservative. We, we actually have a lot of progressive policies here, a lot of really young folks who are looking to push the policies in a really good direction.
On the, on the ADU front, things have moved quite quickly over the last couple of years to allow for, the diversity of sizes, sizes of ADUs basically across the entire [00:01:00] city at this point as a permitted use. Yeah. And. Just for a bit of context, we're looking at getting rid of our parking minimums entirely.
So if that gives you a sense of kind of where we sit as a city and where our city councilors are at that's that's Edmonton.
Kol Peterson: Yeah. Cool. So how did you get involved in doing ADU research and work?
Ashley Salvador: Yeah. So it actually started in my undergrad. I have a degree in sustainability and sociology from Dalhousie University.
And I started to get really interested in basically cities as human habitats and the ways that our cities are helping us thrive, but also the ways that they're kind of detrimental to So from a sustainability lens, I was always interested in the ways that we can help our cities grow, grow inward as opposed to outwards forever endlessly.
And at some point along the way, I came across ADUs as a way for everyday homeowners to participate [00:02:00] in kind of the remaking and rebuilding of their cities. So that's, that's where it started.
Kol Peterson: And can you tell us about some of the key findings of your undergrad and master's degree research in of garden suites and secondary suites, and actually, maybe take a second to define garden suites for people since that's a different term.
Ashley Salvador: Absolutely. So garden suites would be a detached accessory dwelling unit. Most folks will know them as that. Also known as laneway homes, granny flats. The list goes on in Edmonton attached, ADUs. So ones that are typically located in a basement, those are considered secondary suites.
So most of my research focuses on detached accessory dwelling units, so independent from the main house. And I've done two studies at this point. One was in 2016 to 2017 and one I'm currently doing right now. So I, in terms of key findings just reflecting back on the study done in 2016, one of the big findings coming out of [00:03:00] that and Kol, you know all about this is voluntary, affordable.
There was a really good study actually out in Portland that did a full sample or a full survey of owners at that time. And similar findings were, were discovered there around the affordability benefits.
Kol Peterson: Let's just dive into voluntary affordability and then we'll go back to other findings.
Ashley Salvador: Yeah. So basically what I wanted to look at from my research was whether or not it user functioning as a form of affordable housing and what the relationship between the owner and attending.
Has to do with that affordability conversation. So in Edmonton, it was found that close to half of the people who are building these gardens suites are doing so for family or friends to live in. The other half are doing it for a traditional rental income. And when you bring affordability into that conversation it was found that the folks who are renting to family and friends are charging ultra low, sometimes zero rent. [00:04:00] And I mean, it, it seems pretty intuitive. You're not going to charge grandma a bunch of money, the same way you would just a, an unknown tenant. But being able to put that, that finding on paper and actually have similar findings popping up in other cities like Portland, it shows that there is a trend and it shows that ADUs in some capacity are functioning differently in a traditional rental property.
And part of that has to do with the fact that these are homeowner developers, right? They're not, these big wig professional developers who are just trying to do it for a money-making opportunity. There's social reasons in there as well.
Kol Peterson: Let's go back to the original research. Aside from the, just generally speaking that voluntary affordability is one of the things that happens with ADUs, what are some other key findings from your original research?
Ashley Salvador: Yeah. So from the original study I also looked at barriers to development. And one of the biggest [00:05:00] barriers at that time was cost and financing. So it turns out that around 70% of the folks who were building ADUs had a household income of over a hundred thousand dollars annually. So that also brings into question who is able to even benefit from ADUs.. And it was looking like at that time it was really reserved for folks who are in that higher income bracket..
So that was, that was a big finding. One that I like is folks who are building and living in ADUs don't own as many cars. So it is just that they are trying to. Either by choice or just by the location they live in, in the city live a more sustainable, less auto dependence lifestyle.
Kol Peterson: So regarding voluntary affordability, I think you've found some interesting things. Can you go into a little bit more depth about some of the data that you were able to derive from your research?
Ashley Salvador: Yeah, absolutely. And I'll, I'll bring in the current research as well. Cause there was also some findings around [00:06:00] voluntary affordability there. And so if we break down the numbers if you're looking at kind of a typical rent or comparable unit in Edmonton, you'd be looking at around, $1,100, maybe $1,200.
Whereas an ADU who is rented to not a family member---the owner does not know the tenants. It would be comparable, sometimes slightly higher. Whereas if you renting to a family member you're looking between that $500, maybe $700 range. So there's a pretty significant gap between those two and that's not accounting for the people who are discharging zero rent at all.
And I think one of the interesting things is on top of that affordability benefit, there's also some, some sharing of services. So in exchange for, living rent-free in an ADU, maybe your friends or your grandma is helping with childcare, maybe really helping with yard maintenance, things like that.
So there's some kind of informal economies [00:07:00] that are happening around ADUs as well.
Kol Peterson: Can you tell us briefly about the objectives and the model of the Cornerstone Grant Program and what your findings were about that incentive program to induce more deliberately affordable ADUs?
Ashley Salvador: Sure. So. First of all the two, the two main objectives of the study were to look at affordability from both the renter's perspective and the owners and the city of Edmonton has a program that is meant to incentivize the development of ADUs. It's called Cornerstones and the Cornerstones Grant basically we'll give up to $20,000 towards the development of an ADU in exchange for renting that ADU for five years, to someone who is within a defined lower income bracket and the city sets that. When Cornerstones first came out, everyone was really excited because they're like, oh my gosh, $20,000. That's awesome. Like, that's a big chunk of change towards a project.
And throughout my study, I actually found [00:08:00] that not a lot of people are using Cornerstones. They had the opportunity to apply and 75% of people chose not to. And, reflecting on that. And crunching the numbers, I think is what makes it seem like a pretty logical choice to step away from Cornerstones.
So ADUs in Edmonton due to function as a bit of a luxury rental, so you can pull in a pretty penny on a monthly basis. So if you are locked into a Cornerstones Program for five years, where you are forced to rent for a lower rate, It doesn't actually equal out. So you're actually, you could potentially be losing money in exchange for that about opportunity costs to not rent at typical rates for the five-year period.
So we were seeing the cost benefit analysis that people were doing in their heads play out in that research. So Cornerstones isn't that attractive for detached accessory dwelling units. For secondary [00:09:00] suites however, it does make a lot of sense so that it also comes into play the cost of being at your building.
So in Edmonton, a detached accessory dwelling unit averages around $180,000 to $200,000. Whereas the secondary suite, typically $60,000 to $80,000 to have a functional secondary suite. So as you can see, even from the sheer cost perspective, $20,000 towards a secondary suite can make a lot of sense. And they don't function as that luxury rent as well.
Kol Peterson: Another fascinating tidbit that you uncovered are that costs and financing are a perceived barrier, but not, maybe not an actual barrier. So what led you to that conclusion? Tell us some, some of the data behind that.
Ashley Salvador: Sure. So one of the big questions I wanted to go into my current research with was really attacking the question around, for homeowners is, is cost and financing a barrier.
And one of the things coming out of this was, it might just be a perceived [00:10:00] barrier. The people who are reporting the cost and financing is a barrier, have, the same household incomes sometimes higher assessed property values than people who have already built. So that was a little confounding.
Digging a little bit deeper into that, the lack of mADUre financing product from banks seems to be a barrier. So people are kind of getting sticker shock. They hear the price of a typical detached ADU. And they're just like, "Okay, that's clear. I clearly can't afford that." They just assume that they can't afford it. And the people who are saying that ADUs are too expensive, I can't afford it.
Only 10% of them actually spoke with a financial institution. So getting people in the door of a financial institution. That's a bit of a gap right now because people are getting scared upfront and not actually making it in the door. And once, once you get in the door, there are a number of options.
I mean, in [00:11:00] Canada, in Alberta, in particular, the most common way of financing an ADU is you can get up to 80% of the equity of your home. And then up to 80% of the pre appraised value of your ADU. And in most cases, you can piece together a project using that mechanism. But again, when people don't have a financial product that they see as built for ADUs it scares them.
And there's really only one financial institution in Canada and that's Van City that offers that type of product.
Kol Peterson: Let's dive right into that set of questions right now. Cause I think that's worth investigating more. So I've seen that. So the CMHC, which stands for--- Ashley help me out. .
Ashley Salvador: Canadian Mortgage and Housing Association
Kol Peterson: Corporation, maybe?
Ashley Salvador: Corporation yeah.
Kol Peterson: It seems on paper that the CMHC so this is the equivalent to the [00:12:00] GSEs, which are Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac and FHA in the U S so it seems as though the underwriting standards for CMHC for ADU construction loan financing are very good.
For example, at least. On the document that I've seen, they allow for up to a hundred percent of rental earnings to be added to income, and they explicitly endorse secondary suites. And they, so they allow for, if I understand correctly, future rental income to be class, not for detached ADUs. For internal ADUs, you can classify a future rental income potential towards your debt to income?
So secondary suites have been around for a lot longer than detached ADUs. So the regulations are a lot more mature. There's still a ton of confusion around how to handle detached ADUs. And I mean, even, even things in our tax code, like there's still uncertainty around how to deal with them.
Ashley Salvador: So at this point All the [00:13:00] suites that we've seen built, there is no consideration of the future rental potential of that detached unit
Kol Peterson: For secondary suites also?
Ashley Salvador: For secondary suites, I believe. So we've seen up to 50% of the rental income counted towards it, but not, I, I haven't yet to see a hundred percent.
Kol Peterson: So if these underwriting standards are fairly good why is it that there's only one bank, Van City Credit Union, that's doing this type of loan product?
Ashley Salvador: Yeah. So I'm sure as everyone knows, Vancouver is a leader in the ADU space. And I think, honestly, it's just a matter of recognizing that there's a market there.
Obviously it's happened in Vancouver. Van City was pretty quick to jump on it. I mean, we're trying to push institutions here. Local credit unions, ATB is a big one that we're trying to work with to, to get a product together that is specifically for ADUs. And even if it's a branding exercise that would go [00:14:00] a long ways in helping people see that there, there is a specific product, there's a niche for them and this bank can help fill that..
Kol Peterson: Okay. So shifting back to your organization helped me pronounce it, but Y E Garden Suites, is that correct?
Ashley Salvador: Yeah. So YEG is the flight code for Edmonton. So it's YEG gardens suites, or YEGgarden suites, whatever you like.
Kol Peterson: Okay. So tell us about YEG garden suites mission and work?
Sure. So, YEG Gardens Suites was founded about three and a half years ago now. Actually just at the tail end of my first study. So it was funny. I did that study and I spoke with around 150 suite owners at that time. And then, AccessoryDwellings.org published a little article with the media, picked up on my, my research and then people started coming to us. Because building an ADU is confusing and they're, they're looking for anyone who can help them through that process. And they're like, you [00:15:00] seem to know, can you help us? And at that time we're like, okay, we'll hold a little workshop or something. Didn't think that it would go really anywhere beyond that.
So yeah, we, we founded this little organization started pulling small workshops. I started collaborating with the City of Edmonton, local builders, designers, financial institutions, other industry members, and started holding tours and things just kind of grew from there. We, we now regularly have usually around 200 people out to our workshops.
Ashley Salvador: They're day long sessions. We do a lot of advocacy as well. So on the policy side of things, working closely with city planners, to both identify barriers, but also opportunities to improve the regulatory landscape so that more people can build ADUs. But we're also involved in just the infill space in general and are big proponents of courtyard housing. Any form of densification that's gonna help build better neighborhoods.
Kol Peterson: Specifically in Edmonton or throughout [00:16:00] the whole province. So we started out in Edmonton. We actually recently expanded to Calgary as well about a year ago. It's interesting to see the contrast between the two cities as well. And we do have intentions of spreading for now across Western Canada, yeah and we're in conversations with a couple of cities right now about that.
Great. So like, give us an example of the type of regulatory changes that you organizationally are advocating for in other jurisdictions, like Calgary or elsewhere.
Ashley Salvador: Sure. So the biggest one is moving ADUs from a discretionary to a permitted use. So that has been a game changer in Edmonton. And we want to see that in Calgary.
We want to see that in a bunch of municipalities, so that move essentially gives more power and control to homeowners who want to build ADUs. So right now in Calgary, for example, where ADUs are a discretionary use, you can put out a couple thousand [00:17:00] dollars to get your drawings done. Submit your permit.
And then everything gets circulated to your neighbors and to your community. And they have a chance to appeal and say, "Hey, I don't want this put up next to me, or you're going to invade my privacy, or there's gonna be parking issues or X, Y, Z." And what that does. It creates a lot of uncertainty and adds an additional layer of risk for people who want to build ADUs, because they don't know if neighbor two doors down is going to shut down their project.
So being able to remove that risk factor and just make ADUs straight up a permitted use that's where we need to get to in cities like Calgary. And that's, that's where we've gotten to an Edmonton as of a year and a half ago. So we've seen a quite large uptick since then. I actually made a list of some of the regulations that we've had a hand in changing because I forget them all. But yeah, beyond the move from discretionary to permitted, one of the big ones here was size increases.
[00:18:00] So at this point, detached ADUs can be up to 1400 square feet. And you can have a full basement. So it's, it's really a house. Some sort of small little cute unit in the back, it can be, you can actually have a tiny home in Edmonton as long as it's on a permanent foundation. But there's a really broad spectrum of sizes to meet different people's needs.
So that was a really good change as well. And one of the most exciting ones that happened about six months ago, you're now allowed to have both a secondary suite and a detached ADU on the same lot. And that's, I believe Vancouver is the only other municipality in Canada that's allowing that at this point, but that just opens up a lot of doors for people who maybe they couldn't afford to build their detached ADU. But now that they have that additional passive income from that secondary suite, it's possible.
Kol Peterson: I want to talk about the tactics that you use to get that code changed. And then I also want [00:19:00] to go back to that thing that you mentioned briefly. So first of all, it's going to the advocacy approaches that you guys used specifically for allowing for that second unit on a single family lot. How did that go about that? What tactics did you use? Was it successful? In general, what approaches are you guys finding to be successful in terms of making changes to the code?
Ashley Salvador: We take a very, I would say very positive and collaborative approach to our advocacy. If anyone's ever, shown up to city hall or a public hearing and spoken, oftentimes it's a lot of people who are just yelling at counselors and they don't want change to happen and it's very kind of antagonistic.
So we have tried really hard over the last three years to to show up as a, as a partner to the city. As an organization that can tap into community members, tap into industry and operate in that space between city, community, and industry kind of bringing all of those different groups together and finding alignment and shared visions.
We've had a lot of [00:20:00] success with that. So for the basement suites and garden suite, change, it was funny. The city actually already allowed people to have a secondary suites in a duplex or semi detached house. Okay. So if you count that, you'd have the duplex and then so that's two units and then you have two units in the basement.
That's four units, right? So we came in saying, we're just asking for three, we just want a single family home, a secondary suite, and then a detach one in the back. You already allow four, like, this is just three. So being able to help them see the sense in some of these changes. That's that's what we like to do. We like to make it very, very plain and simple.
We're not asking for a lot and then having people show up. They get tired of hearing us speak. So we have a really big Rolodex of homeowners -- they don't show up at city hall typically. They just want to be able to build a house for the grandma in the back and having them share their direct [00:21:00] stories, it can be really, really powerful when you're up in front of legislators.
Kol Peterson: Awesome. We've had similar approaches and similar successes using that same approach. So that's great. So going, going back to the point you made about this provision that allows for detached ADUs to be up to 1400 square feet.
This is this is a novel thing. Usually ADUs are limited to less than that, even in California where it's very aggressive with this, they allow you to use to be up to 1200 square feet. And that is shocking for those of us who are limited to 800 square feet. And I guess this is more of a observational point than anything. But as we start to see regulations that allow for units that are bigger than the primary house as a secondary, or is it accessory dwelling unit. It really, it starts to open up our conception of [00:22:00] the fundamental goals here are. And in some ways I think you and I are in alignment on this, that ADUs are kind of just a way to bust open the door for allowing for creative infill housing typologies, ADUs is one way to do it. And then ultimately we're talking about middle housing in general and different allowances on those properties. Do you have any thoughts about that?
Ashley Salvador: Absolutely. We like to joke that ADUs are like the gateway drug for sort of the medium density, medium scale type developments that we ultimately need to see in a lot of these neighborhoods.
ADUs are very palatable. I don't know if you have a narrow lot homes down in Portland, but in Edmonton, most of our lots around 50 feet wide. And. Probably about 10 years ago at this point, the city allowed subdivision down the middle and everyone was just up in arms about these narrow lot skinny lot homes.
And there was a big rally against them. So when, when garden suites, and ADUs started to come on the scene and become a [00:23:00] bit more popular, they were seen as like this awesome alternative and, "oh, I'd much rather have that next to me". We've worked really hard to humanize ADUs as well. And make it not just about a building, but it's about the story behind it.
It's, it's about grandma. It's about allowing your university age children to, to age next to you, whatever. Right. And once people are okay with that, you can start to broach the conversation of, okay, well, what if that 1400 square foot, ADUs. What if it was a duplex? What if there was like a duplex in your backyard instead of one unit? Maybe there's two, maybe cause a basement suite in it ? Does it really matter?
And Edmonton's getting there actually. So we, we have a new use class that's just classified as multiunit housing and it allows for any configuration you like of units on a lot, as long as you're within the unit count. So you could have a duplex in the back, a duplex in the front you could have courtyard housing, so it's, it's getting really [00:24:00] creative here and that's ultimately what we love to see..
Kol Peterson: Yeah. Awesome. So secondary suites, for whatever reason, I've had more broad adoption in some, at least a handful of Canadian cities then internal ADUs have in the US. Can you give a understanding of why that has been the case in Canada?
Ashley Salvador: Yeah. I was, I was thinking about this one. I don't have a great answer other than we have allowed secondary suites since 2001 here.
So it's been almost 20 years. And right now in Edmonton, we have around the last time. I think around 5,500 internal ADUs. So it could just be a function of we've allowed them for a longer period of time. And I know like all homes here have basements. It's very unusual to see a house that's just built kind of on slab.
So that could be another factor people just trying to make use of that additional space. Yeah. What are your thoughts on that? Do you [00:25:00] have any ideas?
Kol Peterson: Yeah, I think, I think there your last point, there is probably the most relevant point, which has all the homes there have basements. And I think, like in DC, for example, All the row housing there has basements too. So while their ADU codes aren't necessarily very permissive, there's a lot of informal ADUs in, in basements. And so I think that, and I think it has to, it's a combination of the economy or the, the market demand for housing and the structural forms that are there. And then if the regulations allow for it, then yes, there'll be more legal permitted units.
So that's one theory. Okay. So in Canada, outside of your province in general what are some other like of the most common, and significant regulatory barriers that you're seeing that still needs to be addressed in, in Canadian cities for ADUs?
Ashley Salvador: Yeah. So beyond again, beyond the [00:26:00] discretion of your two permitted. I think any, any regulation that ties the built form of the ADU to the primary house, that has to go. So we used to have regulations that ties the height of the ADU to the main house. So you're ADU couldn't be higher than your principal dwelling. And there's a lot of bungalows here, so that would limit all the ADUs to bungalows and I mean, it, it kind of, it overlooks the fact that our cities are constantly evolving and being remade. So if you have like, like a 1950s bungalow on the front, that's half falling down and you're going to redevelop it in five years, then why should this new development be tied to the 1950s, right? So that that's problematic in a lot of jurisdictions.
Same thing goes for size. I don't think it's necessary to say that you're you're ADU needs to be smaller than your principal dwelling. Again, just ties things to the past. Parking [00:27:00] regulations are a big one. So in, in Calgary right now, you have to have two parking stalls for the main house. If you build an ADU, you need another, so that's three stalls on a lot, and that really limits what you're able to build.
So a lot of the ADUs that we see here in Alberta and in Canada, really, other than Vancouver are above a garage. So it's a box on box style, two car garage, and then your ADU or your living spaces above. So if we were to eliminate parking requirements or even reduce them and we're starting to see that like a number of municipalities will have TOD, transit oriented development zones, where if you're next to an LRT or high-frequency bus line, you don't have as as high parking requirements.
So you can actually get more livable space into these homes. It starts to make more financial sense because you're renting a two bedroom versus a studio. And it just feels more functional. One, [00:28:00] one of the findings I forgot to mention from my first study was that there were zero children living in ADUs.
Like it was, it was all single individuals or couples without kids. And if we're looking to integrate more family-friendly units into these neighborhoods, They can't be so small and they can't be kind of subsidiary to parking space. So that's, that's a big one. And I'm super excited that Edmonton next month is very, very likely going to be just a wiping all parking requirements.
Kol Peterson: Yeah. Yeah. Portland is doing that same thing too. I don't know how many other cities are doing that in either Canada or the US, but I'm pretty excited.
Ashley Salvador: There's only like eight or nine that have completely done it. Yeah.
Kol Peterson: So given your research on this topic, do you have any insights to share about who will actually build two ADUs views on their property?
Ashley Salvador: Yeah. So one group that we see as kind of the. I guess the front runners in wanting to do those two [00:29:00] units would be the investor types. So a lot of people who were, savvy real estate folks when secondary suites came out, they jumped on it. They're like absolutely passive rental income in my basement.
Let's go. And for the longest time they've been locked out of having the, the detached ADU as well. So there's like when this regulation came, came up, there was a long lineup of people just like waiting to build that. So they were definitely the early adopters. I mean, it could, it could also make sense for for young families who are looking to buy into a neighborhood that, maybe they can't can't afford it without those additional passive incomes.
So it, it helps people build or move into neighborhoods that, are pretty nice, pretty central, lots of amenities and desirable.
Kol Peterson: Lastly, I think people are going to be curious about your research. Can you tell people how they can go about finding it when it's going to be available?
Ashley Salvador: Yeah. So this is like the worst question to [00:30:00] ask a student, a master's student. When is it going to be done? It should be done August, September is what we're aiming for. It'll it'll be published on my university's website, but I'll be sharing it all over social media, I'm sure. And yeah, if, if we can do another AccessoryDwellings.org article, that would be great.
Kol Peterson: Yeah, so, so AccessoryDwellings.org, for those who want to see this research, and I think it'll be great. And you can find Ashley's previous research on AccessoryDwellings.org too, which I would encourage people to read through. It's really, insightful and a lot of good numbers and data, even though it's a small sample set. So that's what we have to work with. There's only been a few studies anywhere in the world of permitted ADUs. And so this is one of them.
Kelcy King: That wraps up the interview portion of this episode of the ADU hour. As a reminder, these episodes are the edited audio version of interviews that we conducted via a webinar series. Good news. You can access the full [00:31:00] video series via Kol's website, BuildinganADU.com. Now for the second half of the show I curate questions from the audience that gives our guests the opportunity to dive deeper into a topic or address new ideas and questions.
So we're gonna start with David Wade. David mentioned that the prices that you mentioned for building an ADU in Canada is quite a bit less than what we're working with here in the USand Portland and Bellingham and in California.
So he's wondering What evidence have you seen the construction costs less in Canada than US? What kind of cost figures can you give to compare those? Why Canada might be less cost less than the US?
Ashley Salvador: Yeah, that's a good question. So it's interesting. Cause we, we talk with folks in Vancouver quite a bit.
And if you're looking to build an ADU in Vancouver, It's like $300,000 which is almost double what the starting cost of an ADU here in Edmonton is for kind of a similar sized unit. So [00:32:00] I don't necessarily think it's Canada on the whole, that is just, more affordable. I think it really depends on what market you're in.
So Vancouver is obviously a very hot market. Edmonton, not so much so that that definitely could play into it. And I'm sure that things vary city by city in the U S as well.
Kol Peterson: Yeah. And the numbers aren't, I would say not are not dramatically less. Right. So the average, can you give some of those average figures again for the all-in cost for like an 800 square foot ADU?
Ashley Salvador: Yeah. For, for like a, 800 square foot detach ADU in Edmonton between like $190,000 and $200,000 is pretty typical. And that's, basic finishing nothing crazy.
Kol Peterson: Yeah. And that that's actually, it's a pretty comparable, Portland's like to $210,000 for 800 square foot ADU, according to my last year's data. So not that far off. Yeah.
Kelcy King: Moving on to another one to [00:33:00] David's question. So a few developer and families have successfully used the condominium ownership model in the U S to finance and build ADUs. Have you heard of anything similar occurring in Canada?
Ashley Salvador: Yeah. That's a great question. So we're actually looking at doing something like that here in Edmonton. There was a pilot project a couple of years ago that looked at actually subdividing the detached ADU from the main house.
It actually came out of an infill design competition. Someone suggested, Hey, there's a lot of seniors who would like to build an ADU, but they don't necessarily have the financial backing to do so without being able to sell part of their lot.. So that's where the idea came from. The pilot went through a couple of properties participated in that pilot.
And we're just in the phase now where we're kind of figuring out whether or not they're going to apply at citywide. Now that's one option. The other option is the condo or strata title route. And we think that the condo route is [00:34:00] probably the best option it has yet to be done in any cities in Canada that I know of.
But I think that there's just a ton of interest there. Like we meet, we do individual consultations as well, and we meet good people on a weekly basis who are like, I really, really, really want to do it, but it only makes sense if I can either separate via condo subdivision, strata, and that's kind of a deal breaker for a lot of folks. So I think that's the next step for, for a lot of cities and ADUs.
Kelcy King: Great. Thanks. Mary would like to know, does the city of Edmonton charge impact fees for ADUs and if so, what are the costs of those?
Ashley Salvador: Yeah. So, I mean, it really varies for the utility side of things on the development and building permit side around, $2,500 is pretty typical for utility connections. So we have a lot of lanes here. I'm not sure what the built form is like in everyone's city, but we have kind of a secondary street running behind everyone's house.
And that's where our [00:35:00] utilities are in most cases. So it's really easy. It's a short distance to connect utilities to a detached ADU. In those cases, it's $6,000 maybe $7,000 to, to get you hooked up to servicing. Sometimes utilities are in the front though. And in those cases, you either have to have our very, very long trench going all the way to the back.
Sometimes you can connect into the main house and then come up. If that's not an option, you have to directionally drill under and then push the utility lines up. And that can be, anywhere from $10,000 to $20,000.
Kelcy King: The only other one I had, and I'm not sure if you necessarily know. The, the difference between the rental rates of a detached and a secondary suite.
Yep. So detached units typically will run between, I mean, it really depends on your neighborhood and your location and this quality of the suite, but 30 to 50% higher for a detached unit.
You're not sharing a wall. It's basically a detached house, right? [00:36:00] Like it's, it's its own unit. It's the second best thing to owning in a neighborhood. Some people even prefer renting. So you get all the, all the same amenities, all the same benefits of living in the neighborhood. Just a, a rental option versus ownership.
Kol Peterson: And as you just for clarification since, since the Canadian dollar is. Different than what, it's a different amount than the U S are we talking to U S dollars or Canadian dollars when you've all been Canadian dollars? Okay. So $2,500 Canadian dollars is how much US, like $2,000 US or something?
Ashley Salvador: I believe so. I'd have to check- I should've said that off the bat -- yeah, all Canadian dollars.
Kol Peterson: Of course. Why wouldn't you be thinking that way? So that does mean that it is, less expensive there than here for building an ADU and for permitting any ADU.
But I think, I think it kind of more or less going to correlate with the cost of land there. I mean, that's more or less in the US too. Yeah?
[00:37:00] Ashley Salvador: Absolutely.